STUDIO VISIT
Alex Katz in conversation with BRIAN APPEL
continued...
Alex Katz Woods
in Twilight 2002
oil on canvas, 10.5 x 8 inches
Courtesy PaceWildenstein
BA: Many critics have commented
on the role that movies, advertising and billboards have had on your
work. How do you respond to these notions, and can you isolate any examples
of the above that impacted you in some profound way?
AK: Well, I initially come
out of looking at illustration... and then you learn fine art and then
it all seems old. It's a way to revitalize painting, okay? There are
things in movies and billboards that are more exciting to me than a
lot of painting. And they turn me on and I like the subject matter.
And then you want to break a canvas up differently. The wide-angle screen
was a really big thing. And I used to go to the movies at five, no matter
what was playing... just walk in and look at the pictures.
BA: The formal...
AK: Yeah. Just look at the
images... the way they are breaking up the screen. And they had these
Westerns and a head would come in this side... and no one had seen anything
like it in painting. It was like new ways of breaking up a frame. It
was really exciting. You didn't know whether it would work out or not.
And that was really kind of exciting to do those things... all of it.
And the first things were the figures on the flat backgrounds. People
called them illustrations. And I really didn't know what the hell was
going on. I knew they were my paintings. I couldn't see what they were
talking about. I didn't see much of a difference either... but there
was a big difference, actually.
BA: The selection of characters
for your paintings all seem to be intimates of yourself.
AK: Well, they're not really.
Some are friends but most are just acquaintances. And it's more like...
it's almost like casting.
BA: They're intriguing to
you because they represent more than just what they are.
AK: Yeah. They're symbols.
Social symbols, really.
BA: How do you interact with
them? Do you take their photograph beforehand?
AK: No. No.
BA: So it's all memory, or...?
AK: No. They sit for me.
It's all plein-air. All my work starts with plein-air sketches.
BA: Sketching from a real-life
model... in their presence.
AK: Yes. And they sit for
me, and I find out what they look like.
BA: How long do they sit?
AK: An hour and a half, usually.
The cut-outs take longer.
BA: I saw a cutouts show
at Robert Miller Gallery about ten, twelve years ago... all women. I
walked into that show and I was just blown away. I thought, wow, these
women are all intelligent, focused, perceptive, filled with presence...
AK: That's great.
BA: ... and beautiful.
AK: The one I did on Times
Square was used for the Women's Movement. They made a poster out of
it. They felt the same way you did. I've never wanted to do a woman
like an object. You know like...a peach. It seems like it's been done
enough.
BA: Right. Your wife has
been a subject...
AK: Yeah. She's a fabulous
model.
BA: What makes a fabulous
model, Alex?
AK: She knows exactly what
she looks like all the time. She's basically got the genes of a dancer.
When she dances with a guy, the guy looks great.
BA: There's something about
your paintings... they're very surfacey, they're very flat. And yet
for me there seems to be this complexity just below the surface.
AK: It's nothing obvious.
But if you look at it you can figure out this person is 45 years old,
and that person is 22 years old.
BA: Yes.
AK: This person's disturbed.
BA: Absolutely.
AK: It's all there. But there's
a surface... and...
BA: How do you manage to
plant that information in such a seemingly...
AK: Well, basically I start
from the idea of appearance rather than trying to tell you a story about
the person. Most good portraits tell you the story about the person
first.
BA: So surface alone reveals
identity?
AK: What a person looks like
to me is very mysterious. You just try to get what a person looks like
and the other stuff will be there.
BA: When I heard you speak
about photography at the university, ["Facing Arbus: A Conversation",
Feb. 18th, '04] you were deconstructing these photographs that I've
been looking at for decades in a brand new way. The way you look at
the subtlest things, especially when it comes to the figure, is amazing
to me. The way you talked about gestures and their meanings...
AK: I felt like a complete
amateur there, but the things I was saying were just... if you pay attention
to what you're looking at, it will seem real obvious. And it seemed
obvious to you, I guess, after I said it.
BA: Yes, absolutely.
AK: Like a sleeve that's
one inch too short... is a disaster. [Laughs[
BA: Right. It's also a signifier.
AK: Yes. It absolutely tells
you something. It's a lot of information.
BA: Those visual gaffes being
indicators of true moral make-up.
AK: They get it but they
don't know why.
BA: They get it unconsciously.
When did you learn how to really look at surfaces? Why did that happen?
AK: It just evolved I guess.
But I came from parents who were very style conscious. And my father
had great taste - was a fabulous dresser.
BA: Did he talk about it
at all or was it just...?
AK: Yeah. He gave me a lecture
once. He took me over to the window motioning to a group of boys and
said... "Which boy on the street is dressed the best?" And
they were all about 15. I looked out and they were wearing suits and
fedoras and I didn't know what to say. So I picked one of them. He says,
"You're wrong". He says that one is. And that guy was wearing
a sweater and pants. And the guy with the sweater and pants was a fabulous
dresser, but I'd never seen it before.
BA: How old were you at that
time? Were you a teenager?
AK: No, not even... perhaps
eleven, twelve...
BA: So he was trying to tell
you something.
AK: He was giving me a lesson
in styling. But I didn't realize that he was a good dresser till twenty
years later. You realize everything he had and wore was perfect.
BA: Well thought out.
AK: Yeah. And the high school
I went to was all about clothes and dancing [laughs]. So gradually you
sort of looked at things. And you wonder what makes it right and what
makes it wrong with a person. Clothes, and the way they're worn... to
use your words... explain a lot.
BA: Right. You can see their
desires, their aspirations...
AK: ...see everything about
their mind. You can see people who are vain... they look a little silly.
And you look at artwork, too. A lot of old artwork you see... Renoir
makes a man in the Dances that's fabulous. He's so laid back and sure
of himself.
BA: Body language and costume
being indicators of where somebody is... where somebody's going.
AK: Absolutely.
back continued
