STUDIO VISIT
Alex Katz in conversation with BRIAN APPEL
Alex Katz Portrait
of Zac Posen
details to follow
continued...
BA: Would you say that your
painting is better today than five years ago?
AK: Technically, I keep getting
a little better. I don't know whether I've made paintings that have
as much art energy. I wouldn't say I'm painting better paintings, but
I think my technique is a little more proficient. It's like you do a
painting and then everyone tells you it's terrific. So you say, well,
it's terrific. And then ten years later you realize, gee, how'd I ever
do it?
I always extend myself a
little technically and I have more control and get more understanding
of what I'm doing. My technique is a little more prodigious than it
was, but I don't know whether the artwork...
BA: Right. That's up to the
culture to decide.
AK: It's up to the culture.
Yeah.
BA: When you spoke at the
Arbus Lecture back in February, you referenced the work of Evans, Weegee,
Sander, Brady, Avedon, Burkhardt and Arbus like someone who has been
taking photographs, or, at the very least, absorbing photography for
many decades. How has the advent of photography impacted your own thoughts,
perceptions and ultimately your paintings?
AK: In the early 50's, I
was painting from life and painting from photographs at the same time.
I liked the photos because they were so flat. And I liked the photos
because they were nostalgic.
BA: Interesting...
AK: You know... the past
tense. And what I did was take a box of photos... usually someone else's,
and just look at the ones that looked good. And that's how I got those
single images. And when I saw the Brady photographs, then - about that
time I went into it in earnest. I was working from Brady and from Goya.
BA: That's quite a great
coupling!
AK: And Rothko.
BA: The trilogy.
AK: Those were the components
of the early figure and ground relationships in the work. So the photos
were very influential. I've used photographs in the 70's, but in the
70's what I would do was reconstruct it with people. I might start with
a photographic image and then I'd get real people to stand in there
so I got different information. The photos never give you the colors
of what you are looking at.
BA: Right. Color is arbitrary
in photography.
AK: Yes. It's very arbitrary.
BA: Real life is...
AK: Real life's another story.
And I've been working out there doing perceptual paintings so... it
just didn't work. Photography has altered fine art. You know it's been
a big influence on the way you see. You're looking at photos all the
time on TV and the movies and everything. It's a very big part of it.
And the movies have been a big influence. About three or four years
ago, I started to take photos on the beach. I could get gestures I could
never get any other way.
BA: Because your presence
is not felt.
AK: People would make these
gestures... like a boy skipping a rock or someone picking up a shell...
and so I would use the photos for the gestures and then use the color
from plein-air painting. And the drawing would come from when they're
there.
BA: ... using a model in
real time and real life?
AK: Yeah. I use the traditional
plein-air method to get the color right. And then I use the gestures
from the photographs and the drawing would come from classical drawing
to make it volumetric because photos are essentially flat.
BA: Yes. One lens.
AK: One lens. But the drawings
are round.
BA: Cool. If it were possible
to isolate one painting that impacted you the most profoundly, what
would it be?
AK: There's some paintings
that I like a lot. I don't know how they've impacted me but Matisse's
1947 paintings that he showed in '49 at the Matisse Gallery were, like
incredible.
BA: ...made your knees kind
of shake a bit?
AK: Yes. I actually sort
of fainted when I was in there. I couldn't believe anyone could paint
that well.
BA: Wow!
AK: There were a couple of
shows at the Metropolitan. They had a show of great European paintings
from Berlin. They had an upside down Masaccio that was fantastic. I
went and saw it years ago. I still like it but it wasn't, like, the
same painting. Then the Austrian road show at The Met had a little Velazquez
painting of a girl and it was just so fantastic. Because it was so simple.
I had been reading about him and everyone said he was so great... it
was... had so much...
BA: It vibrated?
AK: Yeah. It was a little...
just a little girl. It was incredible that he could get that much energy
out of nothing. I guess that was the biggest painting in my life. And
that became, I think, what I wanted my painting to look like.
BA: In today's "Fashions
of the Times" supplement in The New York Times, you have a commissioned
portrait of Zac Posen [see above] How do you navigate commissions when
they come up? How do you deal with expectations of a certain kind of
delivery which may run counter to your own vision?"
AK: Yeah. I saw it.
BA: You've always been perceived
as being a fashion guru in terms of how you are able to articulate a
certain cut on a suit... a certain de rigeur style of a haircut. You
also have been known as quite an elegant dresser in your own right.
Can you talk a bit about your relationship between art and fashion?
AK: Yeah. I think I've always
been interested in clothes.
BA: ...starting with your
father?
AK: My father and my mother
were interested in fashion. They'd go to movies and they would come
back saying they liked the way Rosalind Russell wore her clothes.
BA: Interesting.
AK: Not how she's dressed.
BA: Right, right.
AK: That is a big difference.
When you see the figures in Pas de Deux [ mid-80's Katz painting]...
each man wears a suit differently. The first guy is a Sunday suit.
BA: The suit sticks out.
AK: It sticks out, et cetera.
Yeah. It's sort of stiff. And then there's one guy there who lives in
a suit. And you can tell that, too. You know he's a lawyer. And the
other guy... how do you put it... he likes to dress.
But it's also... you know,
like a real interesting thing... "Does the man dominate the shirt
or does the shirt dominate the man?" And I was working with these
plaid shirts. But I told Pozen to bring all... come in with a shirt
like this and he did. He came in with a shirt and a tie [Alex is showing
me the painting reproduced in The New York Times].
AK: Yeah. I just put him
into this rotation. I'll show you... [Alex takes me over to his storage
area where a hidden door opens into an area that holds perhaps 40 paintings]
this was the first one.
BA: That's amazing! [I'm
looking at a variation of the Zac Posen I saw just seconds ago].
AK: Right? This guy wanted
one with a profile. So I said, "Okay." He's got a great nose...
he wants to show it... terrific [Alex is sliding out a 6' x 6' headshot
in profile]. No problem. Then I have one here... [Alex is flipping paintings
like he's shuffling a deck of cards] see? And this one's... this painting
I'm keeping.
BA: Yep, that's an incredible
painting [I am quietly freaking at the power of these portraits up close].
AK: Yeah. It just worked
out. And I didn't know it was any good when I finished it the next day.
I said... "You really went over the top".
BA: You have such a young
sensibility. Looking at that, I would think that a 25 year old painted
it.
AK: Yeah. It looks like a
new painting... except technically it isn't.
BA: Exactly. That's why it's
so powerful.
AK: Yeah. This is like magic.
This one's for me. And that's the one I'll keep. I think fashion makes
life interesting. To deny it is to put yourself in a much duller place.
And fashion has risk. And fine art is... they have that whole thing
of Fine Art being made out of stone. You know, the values. And it's
not. It's subject to fashion. Balanchine says you have to think in terms
of fashion because classic ballet is... you can't separate it from fashion.
In classic ballet you have to chase the hemline every year [Laughs].
BA: That's great. Going back
to the Zac Posen portrait if I may, Alex... the cut of the hair, the
clothes, et cetera, pinpoints that painting in terms of the time continuum
so perfectly... like in photography when you are shooting in the real
world...
AK: Yeah. You can tell with
the cufflinks. When the cufflinks switch to the button... and the haircut...
you know... but what's curious is... there's a painting I did in 1965
that was used for a movie opener. And it looked like it belonged in
our time.
BA: Which one? Which film?
AK: "Friends and Neighbours".
BA: Directed by Neil Labute...
couples in malfunction mode.
AK: Yeah. That was a '65,
'66 painting. And it looks like today.
BA: Is that the only time
you've allowed your paintings in a film?
AK: No. They've been used
before in films. Not that much, though. When I saw the guy's film it
was a little embarrassing. So I knew it was good [Laughs]. I got a little
bit afraid of it and then I knew I should do it.
Because his thing was always
about embarrassment. And my thing has always been about being decorous.
BA: They're in opposition.
AK: Yeah. The work is completely
decorous... everything is below the surface.
BA: You've been incredibly
generous, Alex. Thank you so much!
AK: It's been interesting.
A pleasure. But you did a real good job on Winogrand [he is referring
to my article on Garry Winogrand sent by way of introduction].
BA: Thank you, Alex [we shake
hands].
AK: Sure.
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